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We're back from a brief hiatus with a really exciting episode for you! In this episode, you'll hear from Liz Wardle about the sensemaking method that she has developed and evolved from our Howe Faculty Writing Fellows Program. We offer an introduction to the what, why, and how behind the sensemaking method for supporting teams of faculty looking to solve problems and make change in their institutions. We are then joined by Mark Sidebottom and Jennifer Kinney to share their perspective as faculty who have been both participants and facilitators in different programs informed by this method.

Resources Related to this Episode

• Faculty Writing Fellows Program
• "Howe Center Hosts Groundbreaking "Sensemaking for Student Success" Seminar funded by Lumina Foundation
• Sensemaking for Student Success: A Cohort-Based Faculty Change Method
•  (Howe Center for Writing Excellence Youtube Channel)

 Check out these resources at our website: /HCWE or write to us at hwac@miamioh.edu if you have questions or ideas for topics you’d like to hear about in future podcasts.

Hosted on Acast. See  for more information.

In this episode, Rena talks with Assistant Director of the Howe Writing Across the Curriculum (WAC) Program, Dr. Mandy Olejnik, to discuss two different perspectives on graduate student writing—our experiences with being graduate student writers and insights for supporting and advising graduate student writers, drawing from Mandy's research and our HCWE programming on graduate student writing support. We reflect on some of the differences between writing as a graduate student and an undergraduate student, the affective elements of writing in graduate school, and the needed systems that advisors and faculty can help change and innovate to support graduate students.

Check out these resources at our website: /HCWE or write to us at hwac@miamioh.edu if you have questions or ideas for topics you’d like to hear about in future podcasts.

Hosted on Acast. See  for more information.

Rena [00:00:01] Hello listeners, and welcome to This is Howe We Do It. I'm your host, Rena, a Graduate Assistant Director of the Howe Writing Across the Curriculum Program. I'm here today with a guest who some of you may know as the Assistant Director of our Howe Writing Across the Curriculum program, Dr. Mandy Olejnik. Mandy has been at ÍÃ×ÓÏÈÉú University of Ohio for quite a while now. She earned both her M.A. and Ph.D. in Composition and Rhetoric here and previously worked in the Howe Center as a Graduate Assistant Director-- the role that I'm in now--before transitioning to her full time administrative role as our assistant director. Mandy co-edited the collection Changing Conceptions, Changing Practices: Innovating Teaching across Disciplines. And you can also find her work in articles recently appearing in WAC Journal and Across the Disciplines. Much of her research centers on building equitable, systematic writing support structures for students at all levels of education, especially the often overlooked graduate level, which happens to be the reason that we asked her here to be our guest today. In addition to being a graduate student writer herself, not too long ago, Mandy's dissertation--Writing across the Graduate Curriculum: Towards Systemic Change in Graduate Writing Support and Graduate Faculty Development--focused on the structural and systemic shortcomings in systems of graduate writing, studying the history and culture of graduate education to examine how faculty and students teach writing, or are taught to write, and identifying points in the system that can be improved. Her research has inspired several areas of programing that we now offer through the HCWE, including workshops and series that Mandy has led and I've had the pleasure of co-leading with her, such as advising graduate student writers on high stakes writing genres that we did last semester, and a special series on using writing for learning in context for teaching graduate students. Our conversation today discusses both a writer's and administrative or faculty perspective on graduate student writing. We first talk about the experiences of being a graduate student writer before delving more into areas for teaching, supporting, and advising graduate student writers. So, if you're a current graduate student writer or a faculty advisor or administrator who supports graduate student writers, this podcast is for you. We hope you enjoy our chat about being and supporting graduate student writers. Well, Mandy, welcome to the This is Howe We Do It podcast. I'm happy to finally have you in my studio with me. So as you likely know, we began each of our podcast conversations by asking our guests about the last thing that you've written that you're excited about or proud of. So of the many projects that you're working on right now, Mandy, what stands out in your mind?

Mandy [00:02:32] Thanks so much for having me. And I love this question for the chance to really reflect over what you've been writing. So one thing that some people might know about me is that I've actually been a long time fan fiction writer and reader. Literally going back to when I was five years old. I used to write and draw pictures of A Bug's Life, a Pixar movie. It was it was my favorite. And so this is something that I mainly did on my own time after school or during breaks. But it's been a really core part of my literacy journey, my personal identity. And recently I saw a CFP come out asking people to submit proposals on how writing and words have shaped their lives. And I'm really excited about the first draft of my proposal that I wrote about how much fan fiction and fandom means to me and has helped me become who I am and how the online community has accepted me in some ways that my in real life people haven't. So I'm just really excited by the chance to potentially write more formally about that side of my identity that I don't get to really do. And a lot of the research that you just talked about there in that intro.

Rena [00:03:27] Yeah, exactly. It's bridging like one of your more personal writing identities with that professional one. I know that's one of the first things I learned about you is that you're a fan fiction writer, but to be able to see you talk about how that has impacted you in, you know, a more academic journal will be really interesting.

Mandy [00:03:42] It will be fun.

Rena [00:03:43] Awesome. Well, thank you for sharing what's going on in your writing life and letting us celebrate this upcoming proposal with you. So I want to begin our conversation today by reflecting back on the experiences of being a graduate student writer, which was for you, let's see, was two years ago, three years ago...

Mandy [00:03:59] I graduated in May 2022.

Rena [00:04:02] So over two years ago at this point. Wow, time's flying. And I am currently, obviously, a graduate student writer, so let's just talk about what that experience is like. How do you think that being a graduate student writer differs from writing as an undergraduate?

Mandy [00:04:17] I just want to say that I think this is a really important question. I think that we should always be doing, reflecting on where we were, where we are now, how much we've grown, and also really trying to differentiate between those levels of writing, because that's just a really important thing. So the truth of it here is that it is really hard to be a graduate student writer, as you know yourself.

Rena [00:04:37] Yes.

Mandy [00:04:38] Other grad students, other faculty who have been to grad school know it's this weird time of your life where you're basically learning a new and very specific language with all of these disciplinary conventions and rules and expectations that you sometimes just find out by trying and failing at something. And for me, the difference between undergraduate and graduate writing was the stakes and the purpose. As an undergraduate student, I was largely just writing papers for my professors who were probably happy that I understood rhetoric and theory and was excited about it. But it didn't really go anywhere beyond that. Whereas as a graduate student, I wasn't only writing for my professors to prove that I understood something. I was also writing to try and publish, maybe writing for like an academic conference that I was submitting something to, which meant that I had to follow these disciplinary rules and conventions more closely while simultaneously also learning them, thinking about what a conference even was, in which I think it made sometimes a different kind of more critical, constructive feedback necessary for me that I wouldn't have gotten as an undergrad. It's great you understand ethos. Logos, pathos, right. Just to simplify it there. I think at its core, writing is affective, right? We know this, and I think this feels especially acute at the graduate level where you just have so much going on academically, but also personally. So I, like many others, moved out of state for graduate school to begin with, and I had to make new friends and figure out how to live on my own for the first time and just start all of these different aspects of my life. And my Ph.D, like a lot of us potentially listening to this podcast, was interrupted by Covid. I literally had to flee the state of Ohio. Everything was shutting down. I went back to my mom in Michigan for a few weeks, it turned into like 15 months. So in that time, I finished my coursework. I was studying for and passed my comprehensive exam. I wrote my prospectus and I even wrote the first three chapters of my diss during that time. So, so much happened when I wasn't even here. Yet, I was here. It was just a weird time in my life. I really struggled with not having a sense of community on campus. I couldn't even access the library at some point. So they had to mail me books about halfway through the pandemic. I say that this really inherently matters and that there's an entire generation of us who have had our graduate studies interrupted in this way with lasting impacts. And graduate school was always hard, but it was just even harder given all of these things.

Rena [00:06:58] I think the identity of a graduate student writer during this time has really shifted. Like you said, when and at times we were more distanced from that community or even just the environment that we're used to. Being separated from, that kind of leads to a hard-- it even makes that an even more affective identity challenge.

Mandy [00:07:13] I think, too. You're starting your fourth year, right? You've been out of coursework now you don't meet up with your classmates as frequently as you did during coursework. You're on your own. You're writing your own thing. You might talk with your peers about it, but it isn't the same as like we all read the same book for class this week. What do we think? I just think that's also a shift that makes a graduate school a little bit different is you don't have the sort of central, defining task in front of you.

Rena [00:07:37] Absolutely.

Mandy [00:07:38] We're just not necessarily trained to do. You have to be an independent, especially for a Ph.D. program, you are being trained to be an independent researcher to do all these tasks.

Rena [00:07:45] Yeah, I think that's a great point that I'm realizing is one of the greater needs of graduate student writers that that differs from undergraduates, which is it's a much more individual process because you're not like writing with a class. It requires you to really come into your own as a writer and think about who you are as a writer rather than just maybe serving an instructor's expectations.

Mandy [00:08:06] Absolutely. And I know we're going to talk about my diss in a little bit. And I think there's just different needs that you have as a graduate writer that not all faculty are A. Really told about or B. Prepared to do. And there is a lot to know about how to do it.

Rena [00:08:19] Yeah, absolutely. There's no class in it. I know we often say that you don't take a class as you're transferring to graduate school and what it means to be a graduate student and more specifically, writing at this different level. So I want to move on to hear a little bit more about what led you to become interested in studying graduate writing support and how that became a main focus of your work?

Mandy [00:08:40] Yeah, so it's time to go all the way back to my master's program. Believe it or not, my master's thesis.

Rena [00:08:44] Which was still here at ÍÃ×ÓÏÈÉú, but far back

Mandy [00:08:46] It was. But my master's thesis was on like, civic engagement in undergraduate writing and rhetoric programs, which is super cool. But even during my master's, I had the seeds of this interest, right? So I had a really great class with Liz Wardle on threshold concepts of learning, and we also read some writing transfer research in the course. And I was struck by all of this rich and fruitful research out there and how students learn to write and how they struggle, what conditions need to be met, all these different areas. And that class really started my interest in how people learn to write. That's sort of the core guiding question cognitively, emotionally, pedagogically. Then this like the year after the first semester of my PhD, I had a class with J Palmieri called Rhetorics of Social Change, where I started studying, who writing studies research was focusing on and who wasn't. And it was there that I had this grand revelation, like during doing my readings and the journals that we have way more research and data in our field about undergraduate students to write and not as much on graduate students. And as a graduate student learning to write in these new disciplinary, specific, and higher-stakes ways, I had my own host of challenges and I was wanting to learn more about what we knew about graduate writing support and how to support that specific kind. So that was the basis of my interest. And over the next year and a half or so, I was reading as much as I could and was dedicated to supporting graduate student writers myself through my work at the Howe. I interviewed and surveyed a bunch of ÍÃ×ÓÏÈÉú grad students and grad faculty. I led some programing at the HWCE with the then Associate Director Ann Updike to help faculty help their graduate students. Right before my comp exam, however, I had another moment of important revelation, as you do from thinking and learning and basking and all of this. Right? Graduate students are suffering in outdated systems of writing, like the comp exam that I was preparing for and hated. And it was just why are we all going through this that are unnecessarily hard for them and they receive little to no explicit writing support. But who actually has the power to fix that? And who also doesn't really get a lot of explicit support in learning how to mentor graduate student writers? It was really then that I understood that this problem that I was investigating was part of this larger system with different people, different variations, different areas. That was a lightning-bulb moment that drastically changed the direction of my diss and my future research. I at that moment fully solved the problem, being more networked in the system. And I wanted to help students-- that still remained true, that still is true--But to help students in the longer term to help prevent some of these writing challenges and struggles that they were having around comprehensive exams or writing papers. It was important to work with the faculty who actually were a really important step to that in designing the programs and making it all work. And to my knowledge, there was not really a lot of research actually representing that. I think a couple of the books I've been reading for my comp were like, faculty intervention is important. We should have faculty development. They'd mentioned it, but not a lot of people actually follow through to see what would that look like. Kind of like to your first question here, what are the differences between undergrad and grad writing? Why should this be an important step? So it all started myself as a grad student, taking these classes, realizing that I'm learning a lot about one thing, but not seeing these others.

Rena [00:11:58] You had a personal investment in it. Learning it would benefit you as a writer, but also you realized it was a much bigger problem that then you could address.

Mandy [00:12:06] Through being a graduate assistant who worked with faculty and led programing, that was sort of my lane of interest. And I was seeing that this is an opportunity for me to be able to intervene and help people really long term solve these problems. And it was all during a pandemic, of course. So mix of zoom and in-person and online and all that.

Rena [00:12:23] But if anything, as you mentioned earlier, even more of a reason, you know, an exigence for why more support is needed for writers and more specifically graduate student writers who are still making this kind of journey into their respective field. And but as you said, maybe from these distanced environments because of the pandemic. So you've alluded a lot to your dissertation research and how it kind of began from this interest and came out of your comp exam and the work that you were doing as a graduate assistant director in the Howe center. But tell us more about your dissertation research. What did you learn about the history of graduate education and writing in the US and what kind of data did you gather?

Mandy [00:13:03] So my dissertation for a little bit of context was broken up into three main parts, the different chapters. So one part was the history of graduate education and its writing structures and systems. Second part was an analysis of how graduate faculty were currently navigating their roles within that system supporting graduate writers. The third section was a case study of graduate faculty changing the system and ways that they support their graduate writers, including revising and reimagining structures that were not serving their students the best way they thought. And this to me was a really fun way to structure it because I had different kinds of data that I can collect. So for the first part, I did a lot of reading just about all the different history of the United States and its graduate education, going back and finding books, again from the library that I could barely access, but still trying to gather what was the story.

Rena [00:13:50] What was the first dissertation--I know that was something.

Mandy [00:13:52] Actually I can tell you about that. Right.

Rena [00:13:54] You shared with me.

Mandy [00:13:54]  I know. So what I learned from, from all of this first part of the dissertation and the history of U.S. graduate education and writing is that we really didn't have the best start, if you really think about it. So graduate programs sprung up in the United States largely in response to hordes of students going to Europe for their graduate study because undergraduate programs existed in the United States like Harvard and Yale. But there was no other place to go, and Europe had them. Arguably, they were better, you know, designed and programed for students and they were going there. And the leaders of our institutions in this country said, wait a minute, they should stay here. Let's start offering them. I'm sure it was a lot more than that, of course, that the greater good. But that kind of felt like an exigence was like we're losing students. We need to be able to offer them higher levels of education, make them different than the undergrad, make it go beyond, make it harder or things like that. And so fun fact, we did this because you asked about this. So the first dissertation in the United States was submitted to Yale University in 1861 by James Morris Whiton. It was six pages in length.

Rena [00:14:58] If only.

Mandy [00:14:59] Six pages. All you got to do, Rena. All written in iambic pentameter, which might be a big challenge. And it was titled "Life is Short or it is Long". So given our reactions here, right the genre of the dissertation has obviously changed a lot since then as has graduate education itself, where we no longer primarily have the white, wealthy, privileged male elite studying in the academy to become professors themselves. But instead we have a growing number of diverse students across contexts who face their own realities and challenges and are studying for different purposes. There's a lot of conversation going on right now how a lot of PhD students in the country don't actually always stay in academia. I know at ÍÃ×ÓÏÈÉú, the most recent number I heard was that only about 14% of doctoral students actually enter the academy as professors. So we just have a different context of what graduate students are going on to do.

Rena [00:15:51] And what it is preparing them for.

Mandy [00:15:52] Yeah, and I think one of the biggest takeaways from my diss is, again, there was the history and I was studying faculty who were basically like I was never trained how to do this. This is hard. This is terrible. I'm going to change it for the better so that we can actually do better. So we have these these systems and these structures that were built in the late 1800s that we can change, we can make a better vision of what we want to do. The faculty at ÍÃ×ÓÏÈÉú in my study who were doing all of this, they were doing such a great job and they were really taking their role seriously and in terms of preparing graduate students for their goals. And we as WAC administrators were able to help facilitate their growth and their progress. And yes, I'm not a gerontologist. I can't tell them what to do, but I can help advise and help them think through the purpose of their writing and their genres. Actually I have an article out in the WAC journal that discusses how WAC historically hasn't really focused on graduate education. But my case studies and experience illustrate how much potential it actually can make for you to say: Let's focus on this group of students, this area, and let's build better structures. So we can do it. And how do we make these changes more mainstream is what I'm really excited about. So how do we intervene to create better structures and systems of graduate writing across the country? How do we stop and say it is possible--here's a heuristic, here's a model. Let's just make this better for our students.

Rena [00:17:07] And that we are the ones that have the power and agency to do it. It's easy to just feel like, this is how it's always been. It's hard to make change. And why change something that has seemingly worked all this time, but has it really worked and is it serving us now? And so being willing to ask those questions and being willing to, you know, interrogate like what change might be possible and what might be useful, I think that's honestly the first step that a lot of programs need to take is just that willingness to question.

Mandy [00:17:35] That was actually a really big motivating factor. And the case study in the English department was that a composition and rhetoric faculty member in our faculty learning community was pulling their students and asking what parts of graduate writing was so hard for them? And they were all talking about the comp exam. This faculty member had the impression that we can't change the comp exam. It's what the grad school mandates. But actually the associate dean of the graduate school came in and said, we actually don't care what you have. You just need to have an exam. You can decide what it is. And that was they just sort of realized, oh, actually we can work to make this better. We inherited this, this terrible structure. We want to make it better. How do we do that? How could we do that? And I just think you're right. We need to be able to to know the power that we have in the agency that we actually have in creating this. And I think graduate education is more decentralized from the university. You don't have to go through University Senate to change your comp exam. Right? You just have to get your department on board, crowdsource together, figure out what you want it to be. Maybe your department has to approve, but that's sort of it. It's not as big of a accreditation issue as some undergraduate programs face.

Rena [00:18:40] And so I think that's a great example for those to know that you have to look into it. But sometimes it might not even be as tedious of a process as it would seem to be just from thinking about it. But yeah, being willing to take that first step and ask those questions because I think we're at a time where it's really important that we are asking questions about how we are preparing our students and especially graduate students who, as you mentioned, may not be going into academia, specifically how we're preparing them and how we can ensure that the writing, the learning that they do in the program is actually going to serve their next steps.

Rena [00:19:15] So it's really interesting to hear kind of your takeaways and how they relate to what writing program administration and specifically writing across the curriculum program like we work in and can do for graduate students by supporting kind of the more systems and faculty that will work with them. So how have these takeaways informed your work at the Howe Center? Tell us more about the kind of programing that you've done.

Mandy [00:19:41] This work has informed a lot of what I've done, and I want to just again say for any grad students listening, you learn so much and grow so much throughout your degree programs from the work that you do, work that you start maybe don't finish. It's kind of funny and fun to see how it evolves over time. So I think I've grown a lot from when I was a grad student working on my diss, both in terms of stuff that I've been doing at the Howe and also some other research projects that I've been working on. So as I mentioned, my core interest and fascination has always been how people learn how to write and how we're teaching people to write, people being students, being faculty, even being community members, right? So it's that thread that I see now with my most recent foray into AI and writing instruction. I know everybody is worried about AI. What's it going to do? How are we going to be? And so this started with me learning more about it as part of my role in faculty development here at the Howe when Chat GPT became more mainstream. We were offering workshops and opportunities for folks to learn more about it. As I progressed with my work in AI, I still feel tapped back into that same core sense of how do people learn how to write? And then so how do these tools influence and impact how people learn to write and make meaning of text? And so I'm still actively studying both graduate student and graduate faculty undergoing changing writing structures and pedagogy. And I still have plenty more to say about it. But I'm also expanding, which I think is natural. I think your work, you will expand and grow and find new interests, right? My conceptual frame for my diss showed me that we are all actors and subjects moving through a system and that we are all connected to other nodes of the system. And that helps me better understand education and the academic world itself. And so in the workshops that I've been leading at the Howe I always try to have a sort of bigger picture frame. So we're talking about you as an instructor and your class working on your assignment, but you're part of a department, you're part of a program. Who else might be part of this conversation that you have to bring back to you? And again, I think even something as simple as like, you know, cultural historical activity theory that I studied in my diss has really informed my orientation in framing things to faculty in ways that I think even going with A.I. and other areas, it just always comes back to you and helps you see the bigger picture.

Rena [00:21:50] Yeah, those frames stay with, stay with you and they are always lenses through which you can see new things to make connections. Yeah, I think it's really interesting how it's continued to inform work that has maybe veered off into different directions. But then I know you've also--I've had the pleasure of doing so with you--led a lot of faculty support for advising or just kind of supporting graduate student writers. When you just mentioned mapping, you know, the different systems and seeing your role in them. I immediately thought back to our workshop series on supporting or using writing for learning to support graduate student writers, where we had all participants like map out the support system that they saw happening in their department specific to graduate student writers. And it was really interesting to see what all of the different faculty across disciplines came up with and how they represented their different maps. But I think kind of the overarching maybe takeaway from our discussion with all of them was that maybe there wasn't always a clear system that they felt that they could map out and that their students would be able to understand.

Mandy [00:22:55] And so and I think, too, it's really important to think about how whenever we have had programs that focus more specifically on supporting graduate student writers, the graduate faculty love it. They have so much to say, they're so thoughtful. A lot of them say like, this is the first time I've actually thought this carefully about it. I've just sort of walked in and I started teaching my students and advising my students. But we would even have conversations of like, what does it mean to be a mentor? What does it mean to be on a person's diss committee? Just freewrite it for a little bit, think through it. What is your role? What is their role? What are your expectations? And I think that there's...that's one thing that I've learned from all the work that I've done at the Howe and in my diss is that we don't talk about supporting grads enough. It is really important. We have so much to say. Everyone gets so excited about it, but we just don't, it just doesn't naturally happen because I think we get busy. And for better or for worse, I think that a lot of graduate writing and education needs are a little bit second tier to undergraduate in the sense that there are more undergraduate students at most institutions in the country. They need support in different ways. They take more courses. The degree programs are longer than like some master's program. So I think it's easy to focus all of our energy on that. And then to come back to the grad student sort of as something arises, maybe. But I think when you actually stop and center and say, How do we focus on this, I'm teaching a class next year and I'm going to be part of this five part series to learn how to better scaffold it. How to listen to my grad students. I know a lot of progress can come from that, and it's a direction that just benefits everybody involved.

Rena [00:24:24] Yeah, absolutely. And I know we often also have participants reflect on what they can remember about being graduate student writers, which is always a very revealing experience. I know it's great that you and I can offer insight as I'm currently a graduate student writer, you were recently, so we have that insight to offer, but when we remind them of the challenges and needs that they had as writers during that time, it makes them kind of reflect and I think tap back in to that experience and what kind of support they could have used and help them recognize that maybe the systems of support weren't always there for them and that now they can play a role in helping to create them for their students. So I always am just so inspired when we talk to the graduate faculty and what we feel that we can create, especially across disciplines. Because though it is, it is contextual at times based on the department or the discipline and how the roles play out, we learned so much about like what mentorship means and advising means by having conversations across those silos.

Rena [00:25:21] So I'd love to hear a little bit more about some of the programing that you've done through the Howe to support graduate student writers. I know that there was, I believe, in FLC, a faculty learning community at one point?

Mandy [00:25:31] Yeah. So we've talked sort of throughout about like this different five part series that we've done, other kind of isolated workshops. One of the the main initiatives that we led was a year long faculty learning community with former associate director Ann Updike during the 2020-2021 school year. So it was during Covid, which, you know, online, but it was actually still a really generative event where we had a very passionate group of faculty from music, from psychology and English who met with us, you know, every few weeks throughout the entire year to learn more about what graduate writing looked like, how it was supported, how to examine their structures. And as I already mentioned on the podcast, that was the group where the English faculty member in composition and  rhetoric was able to radically help redesign and rethink the comprehensive exam process. That they actually did, and that is being piloted and you yourself have actually benefited from that.

Rena [00:26:23] And passed, thank goodness

Mandy [00:26:25] Congrats. And so it's just a really, I think, productive experience in having a faculty learning community. And I think it was the first one that we've sponsored as the Howe and we've had other ones since then, like around e-portfolios and things like that. So it was a a good time to test out what does it look like to have a long period of time with faculty that's not necessarily our faculty fellows program, but that's arranged around a certain topic of interest.

Rena [00:26:49] And then how can they take back what they've learned and make action from it, which that faculty member was able to do and actually, you know, pilot this new revised comp exam. And I know other project--and again, another opportunity to bring faculty across different departments and disciplines who have different levels of experience of working with graduate student writers and just have this open discussion about what it means to support them in our different programs.

Mandy [00:27:11] I also wanted to say how rewarding it's been to work with you, Rena, on all these different graduate initiatives, especially the five part series. As you mentioned, we were able to offer a lot--You as a current graduate student, me as a as a recent one. But also since you were currently, you were going through your comps at the time I was on your committee. And so I think we had a really interesting dynamic of like Rena being here's what I think my committee members should be doing and me as a committee member going, nobody's actually told me anything. I'm just going on what I experienced. And also as a person who studies graduate writing, I have an idea of what I want to do to help add some personal inflection into our group, to really open up ideas and just be really real with each other. And I think the faculty in turn were like, I actually don't know about what I'm doing in this certain area. We're figuring it out together. I think it created a sense of trust amongst our community.

Rena [00:28:00] Yeah, I think it was a really like I appreciated that we were able to bring those different perspectives and I've learned so much from your research and the different programing that you've offered that I've either worked with you on or just learned from, because it's helped me not only think about myself as a graduate student writer, but also look for those systems of support that I'm within and kind of understand how they work together and how I can best make use of them, which again, you're not taught to do. As I mentioned earlier, you're not you don't take a class on being a graduate student writer. You also don't take a class on being an advisor or a committee member. So having, you know, an opportunity to talk through those questions. But also in that case, you were able to you know, we were talking about them together as you being a committee member for me. And I think that's like, you know, one of the major takeaways I had from our Using Writing for Learning for Graduate Student Writers series, which was just maybe talk to your students, survey them, ask them what kinds of support that they need. Look, you know, ask if they would like peer support, more structured, you know, kind of figuring out what would best serve them sometimes is just opening a conversation with them. Which I think we did by leading that workshop and providing our perspectives.

Rena [00:29:15] All right. So I want to end with a final couple of questions to just learn from all of your research and knowledge on graduate student writers to get some advice. So first, what advice or direction would you give to graduate student writers who are in a difficult place or maybe doubting themselves or just struggling with kind of a new genre?

Mandy [00:29:34] For those graduate students, I would like to tell you that you're not alone. So writing in graduate school is so hard. I felt it too and Rena has felt it, is feeling it, right. I went through so many periods of not thinking that I was good enough during my graduate degree. I think we all go through that to a certain extent. And while I hate that that's the culture and where our mind goes, I do take some comfort in that we all felt it or feel it at different stages in our academic lives. And it's I hate to say that it's normal, but is a part of the learning process perhaps that you're not sure of your abilities and that you are recognizing that you're sort of oscillating between I thought I knew everything and now I'm entering this new stage of learning more information. It's okay to be overwhelmed by all the different knowledge that you don't yet know. Your feelings are so valid, but we're learning to write is hard for everyone and everyone can learn how to write. Writing is a process learned by practice feedback revision. We need readers to tell us what they think, that we know how to improve our writing. And that's what graduate school is actually for, right? It's to practice and to learn. I know the stakes can feel very high. They shouldn't be, but they are. Again, back in 1861, they're writing six pages. Now we're pushing 200 right, 300 even. And I... You know, even as you push yourself to do better in publish and do whatever, you're still learning, right? You're still trying to be better. Be kind to yourself. Remember that you're a learner, too. I mean, it's going to be okay. You should have... find network of people to support you, to be there, for you, to commiserate with you. That's, I think, a really important thing to take to heart.

Rena [00:31:06] I love that framing of just remembering that any time that you're finding a, you know, a challenge or difficulty, that it's just part of the learning process and that it's just natural and that it will lead, I think, to more learning by overcoming it. So being willing to just not doubt in yourself too much, know that we're all going through it.

Mandy [00:31:24] For graduate faculty, administrators and advisors, my biggest piece of advice boils down to listen to and learn from your students. Their experiences are valid and important, and for a lot of us, it might have been a while since we've been a graduate student, you know, and being a graduate student is not the same as it was 20 years ago or frankly, even five years ago. The pandemic has changed so much. The society itself keeps evolving, so we as post PhDs can sometimes get caught in a cycle of remembering what graduate school was like for us, maybe feeling tension of certain things being different or not lining up the same. Now as we're on the other side, our students might not write in the ways that we expected them to or in the ways that we ourselves did. This can be intimidating, but it doesn't mean that, you know, any party is doing something wrong. Sometimes things have just changed. Society has changed. Again, our graduate students are preparing for different kinds of degrees where being able to write a certain kind of academic essay might not actually be the most important thing for them to learn how to do. And it's our job to help prepare our students in the ways that they need, not in the ways that we think that they should need or that we would prefer that they have. There is an art to letting go in graduate mentoring, that I think is really important. Letting go of our own conceptions and assumptions, letting go of the projects or the careers that we ourselves might want for our students. I'm not saying that we shouldn't hold our students to rigorous academic expectations or anything like that, but that affectively and emotionally we need to be there for them in the ways that they need, which might involve a little bit of us letting go of what we think that they need.

Rena [00:32:59] Wow, that's really thoughtful advice. Just kind of reminds me of like seeing the whole person behind the writing and the task and remembering that, you know, as you said, it's part of the learning process for them and just supporting their needs and what's going to help them kind of achieve the next step instead of maybe always like worrying too much about, as you mentioned, expectations or how things usually are. So I think that's really important. Well, thank you for making time to share all about your research. Everything that you've learned about graduate student writers, being one yourself and supporting them, and for offering your insights on how to better support us. Me. Really appreciate it.

Mandy [00:33:40] Thank you so much for having me.

Rena [00:33:41] As a fellow graduate student, writer myself, a huge thank you to Mandy for shining light on this important population of writers that need specific support depending on their context, and also for offering encouragement and advice to those who are currently graduate student writers and can understand what it's like to go through this difficult process. And thank you, listeners, for tuning in to this episode. If you haven't already like and subscribe to our podcast wherever you're listening from, so that you'll know right away when we release our next episode. Don't forget--if there's topics or kinds of writing that you'd like to hear about in future podcast episodes, write to us at HWAC@miamioh.edu. We'd love to hear from you. Alright, folks. And that is Howe we do it. Talk to you again soon.

Mandy [00:34:22] Composition and Rhetoric Faculty member in our Faculty Learning Committee. Composition and Rhetoric Faculty Member in our Faculty Learning Committee.

Rena [00:34:33] So many similar words.

Mandy [00:34:35] I know. I love it.  A faculty member in our... now I'm forgetting the first part.

 

This episode features a conversation with former Graduate Assistant Director for the Howe Writing Across the Curriculum (WAC) Program Will Chesher as he reflects on his role and experiences as a graduate student working in this administrative role. This discussion offers insight into the projects from the past few years that were especially memorable to Will and the impact doctoral students can make in this role.

Resources from Will's Projects at the HCWE

• Faculty Writing Fellows Program
• ÍÃ×ÓÏÈÉú Writing Institute
• Article announcing Peer Review FLC

Resources Shared by Will

Finally, if you're interested in reading more or applying to the English: Composition & Rhetoric graduate programs at ÍÃ×ÓÏÈÉú University of Ohio and the opportunities offered to doctoral students, you can learn more at this website.

Check out these resources at our website: /HCWE or write to us at hwac@miamioh.edu if you have questions or ideas for topics you’d like to hear about in future podcasts.

Hosted on Acast. See  for more information.

In this episode, our behind the scenes executive producer Will Chesher steps in as a guest host to interview ÍÃ×ÓÏÈÉú graduate student, and your very own podcast host, Rena Perez as this week's guest to continue the conversation from last episode on ePortfolios. While our last episode featured faculty perspectives on teaching ePortfolios, Rena offers a writers’ experiences and insights into the types of ePortfolios you may create, where to start when creating an ePortfolio, and the processes of selection and reflection on your chosen content.

Resources on ePortfolios

• Across the Disciplines special issue: 
• Portfolio Keeping: A Guide for Students by Nedra Reynolds and Elizabeth Davis ()

Check out these resources at our website: /HCWE or write to us at hwac@miamioh.edu if you have questions or ideas for topics you’d like to hear about in future podcasts.

Hosted on Acast. See  for more information.

In this episode, we unpack the genre of ePortfolios and their value for teaching and learning with ÍÃ×ÓÏÈÉú instructors Beth Reed and Julie Szucs. Drawing from their experiences participating in Faculty Learning Communities on ePortfolios through the HCWE, we share ideas for implementing and scaffolding ePortfolio assignments and what students can do with these compositions at the university and beyond.

Resources on ePortfolios or Mentioned in the Episode

• Across the Disciplines special issue, 

Check out these resources at our website: /HCWE or write to us at hwac@miamioh.edu if you have questions or ideas for topics you’d like to hear about in future podcasts.

Hosted on Acast. See  for more information.

Hosted on Acast. See  for more information.

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In the episode, Elizabeth Hoover and Liz Wardle talk about the purpose of capstone projects, the importance of letting students take the lead, and what students learn from these engaging capstone experiences at ÍÃ×ÓÏÈÉú University.

• HCWE handout on  Creating Capstone Assignments
• ÍÃ×ÓÏÈÉú Writing Spotlight about Designing Transformative Capstones

Check out these resources at our website: /HCWE or write to us at hwac@miamioh.edu if you have questions or ideas for topics you’d like to hear about in future podcasts.

Hosted on Acast. See  for more information.

Episode 1 - Capstones - Liz & Elizabeth.mp3

Rena Perez [00:00:03] Hello listeners, and welcome to our first official episode of "This is Howe We Do It." I'm your host, Rena, a Graduate Assistant Director of the Howe Writing Across the Curriculum Program at ÍÃ×ÓÏÈÉú University of Ohio. I'm so excited to kick off our podcast today with a great conversation about capstones, why they are such meaningful experiences for students' learning, and how students can use writing in capstones to communicate across different audiences. So what are capstones? Well, many universities offer capstone courses for senior students as a way to end their undergraduate programs with a unique project. Capstone projects help to draw connections between students' learning and skills from their various experiences from the university and beyond, and then apply them often through writing across different genres. Here at ÍÃ×ÓÏÈÉú University of Ohio, our undergraduate programs culminate students' learning through a senior capstone experience that is also part of our liberal education experience called the ÍÃ×ÓÏÈÉú Plan. Today's episode discusses some qualities of effective senior capstone projects and the role of writing within these projects to support students' learning. How can we use writing in our capstone projects to teach and reinforce to students the important skills we want them to take from their education into their professional lives? We wanted to hear perspectives from two faculty at ÍÃ×ÓÏÈÉú who have been thinking about the bigger picture of capstones in students' education and how writing shapes this, learning in ways that prepares our students for the next steps. Our two guests for today have a lot of insight to offer us on the best practices for designing capstone projects and how writing can support these goals from different perspectives through their administrative roles at the university as well as their own teaching. We're joined today by Elizabeth Hoover, a teaching professor in musicology in the Department of Music, specializing in 20th century music and American experimentalism. It was a little difficult for me to say that, but I made it through. She also serves as the current associate director of liberal Education. The role that brings her here today to chat with us about capstones and the role that they play in culminating a liberal education. We're also joined by Elizabeth Wardle, our director of the Howe Center for Writing Excellence and the Roger and Joyce Howe, Distinguished Professor of Written Communication. As Director of the Howe, Liz works with ÍÃ×ÓÏÈÉú faculty in all disciplines on teaching writing in their courses, playing an important role in writing instruction across our campus. But we've asked her here today more specifically as an instructor who frequently teaches senior capstones, both at ÍÃ×ÓÏÈÉú and at her previous institution. I'm so excited for this conversation today, so let's get into it. Alright. Well, welcome to you both and thank you for joining us on the This is Howe We Do It podcast. You are our first guests to our podcast, so we really appreciate you for being willing and thank you in advance for bearing with me as I learn how to podcast, how to host. But we want to begin each of our podcast conversations by asking our guests the last thing that you've written that you're most proud of or excited about. So Liz, what comes to mind for you?

Liz Wardle [00:03:10] Yesterday, I finally finished a group draft of something we've revised about a hundred times about the challenges to higher ed given the state of anti-democracy forces and then the role of our field in helping people think about what, you know, education should be doing. And we have rewritten and rewritten and rewritten. And I was really, really proud to finally send that off to the rest of the group.

Rena Perez [00:03:37] Yeah. How exciting! Lots of hard work that went into that. But it's such an important thing to write about and share that message with others.

Liz Wardle [00:03:44] Yeah, it's pretty depressing, but we tried to end on a positive note.

Elizabeth Hoover [00:03:48] How did you end on a positive note?

Liz Wardle [00:03:50] We just sort of did an exhortation to the field that this is the moment when what we know as rhetoric scholars really matters because people don't know how to sort out the messages that they're getting and how to, sort of, seek truth and fact from fiction and that that is what we know how to do. And so, it's our moment if we can figure out how to actually seize it and figure out how to do outward facing projects, which is sort of what it was about.

Rena Perez [00:04:17] Interesting. So kind of a call to action for others to take up this work and see the importance of it.

Liz Wardle [00:04:22] Yeah. And one of the examples was the ÍÃ×ÓÏÈÉú Writing Institute, which we obviously did here at the Howe Center.

Rena Perez [00:04:28] Very nice! A good way to market that to others to see the different ways that are possible to put out our work to the public.

Liz Wardle [00:04:35] Yeah.

Rena Perez [00:04:36] Wonderful! Thanks Liz. And how about you, Elizabeth Hoover? What is something that you've recently written that you were proud of or excited about?

Elizabeth Hoover [00:04:43] Well, I have all semester been thinking through the redesign of one of my courses. It's a film music course, and I was thinking through it and I really wanted to concentrate on listening and actually using writing to help students think through what they're hearing and interpreting what they're hearing. So I rebranded; the course is now Cinematic Listening, and I am proud of the opening narrative that explains what the purpose of the course is and how it relates to our liberal education at ÍÃ×ÓÏÈÉú, but more importantly, at the center of it, and almost all of the assessment, is a portfolio!

Rena Perez [00:05:22] Oh yeah!

Elizabeth Hoover [00:05:23] It's a cinematic listening portfolio.

Rena Perez [00:05:26] How exciting!

Elizabeth Hoover [00:05:26] Very exciting! There are film music theory notes, there are screening synthesis brochures, a culminating poster that they create and they share it. So I'm very excited about that. And so writing those instructions in a transparent way for students to also be excited and not kind of scared of maybe the theoretical readings and very excited about how you can use that as a frame to understand listening to film.

Rena Perez [00:05:55] Yeah, absolutely. A lot of different moving parts for their portfolio, but allows them to engage with different genres and then kind of see how it all comes together in their learning experience. We love a good portfolio over at the Howe Center! We actually will have an episode on portfolios later this semester, so keep an eye out for that! Alright, well, thank you both for sharing what you've been writing about lately and letting us celebrate your writing lives with you. So now to begin our conversation today, we are going to be chatting about capstone projects in today's podcast. So I wanted to start by learning more about why capstones remain such a valuable and important part of students' learning and liberal education. Elizabeth Hoover, if you'd start, from your liberal education perspective, would you explain what capstones and their culminating projects are designed to do? What stands out to you as important for all students to take away from this as their final liberal education experience?

Elizabeth Hoover [00:06:49] They are very, very important because they are demonstrative of liberal education at ÍÃ×ÓÏÈÉú and not necessarily only a culminating part of the program they've been pursuing while at ÍÃ×ÓÏÈÉú. So all of the ÍÃ×ÓÏÈÉú plan courses that they have been engaging with throughout their years at ÍÃ×ÓÏÈÉú are focus on these four pillars. So there are there are communication and expression, critical and integrative thinking, civic mindedness and social engagement, and collaboration and innovation. Those are important to all ÍÃ×ÓÏÈÉú plan courses and the development of certain dispositions and perspectives and skills. And so the capstone is a place for students to be able to really bring how they've developed and honed these skills in their entire ÍÃ×ÓÏÈÉú Plan experience and liberal education experience towards the end of their time at ÍÃ×ÓÏÈÉú after they have pursued 93 hours here.

Rena Perez [00:07:53] Yeah, it's a very integrative experience to really help them make connections between their learning and their program, as well as in all of the ÍÃ×ÓÏÈÉú Plan courses that they've taken in their time here. So what stands out to you as like a takeaway from this experience that you often see students getting from a capstone project?

Elizabeth Hoover [00:08:10] I think the most important piece is that they are engaging with data or primary sources and sharing knowledge and interpretation and reflection outside of the classroom. And I'm sure that Liz Wardle will talk about this more, but thinking about not just their time at ÍÃ×ÓÏÈÉú and classroom spaces, but the outside world problems that exist in the world and how they can bring those pillars skills to the forefront in a project that is student initiated and driven by the learner.

Rena Perez [00:08:50] Yeah, that's something I really love about capstone projects is the agency that students have in picking a project that is passionate, that they're passionate about and that they want to make a difference in, and then to be able to apply everything that they've learned, their strengths and knowledges and that interest and to thinking about problem solving in their local communities. And Liz, I know your recent professional writing capstone students also kind of work to make a change in their community through the student debt crisis. They created campaigns that help them spread awareness about the problem, which also included various genres of writing, such as infographics, websites, stickers, brochures, etc. could you tell us more about this capstone project and what led you to design it in this way?

Liz Wardle [00:09:34] Sure. So every time I teach a capstone course, I try to think about a sort of a theme or a way to consider the role of writing and rhetoric in the world. And so I guess the best thing about teaching a capstone in rhetoric is that everything can be related. And so last, the last time I taught this in 2022, I was really thinking about the student debt crisis. There was a lot of conversation about it and about student loan forgiveness. And so it just seemed like it might be relevant to the students as they were graduating from ÍÃ×ÓÏÈÉú. So in terms of design, what I like to do every time I teach a capstone is really give them a chance to learn about the problem that we're taking up so that they really get educated. So they read Chris Newfield's book called The Great Mistake: How We Wrecked Public Education and How We Can Fix It, which I highly recommend, and then we did some other research, and then they started really thinking about what they cared about, what problems they wanted to solve. They got to know each other and then they moved into groups and started identifying the problem their group wanted to solve and then what they could actually create using rhetoric in order to make a change in the world. And they all did very, very different things depending on, you know, what the problem was.

Rena Perez [00:10:55] Yeah, I remember that year your students hosted a sharecase to actually show with to the public what they'd created and also really spread awareness and inform the public about what the student loan debt crisis is and how they can be, you know, partners in helping to solve this problem as well. What was really memorable, too, about what students took away from that experience or what they created?

Liz Wardle [00:11:18] Yeah. So, I mean, I think that we always have a challenge of convincing our students that they're actually creating something useful for the world. They're not just doing something for their teacher. And so having that sharecase with stakeholders who actually cared about the problem was, I think, really pivotal to getting them over the final, you know, the final hump of the class because a lot of them are graduating seniors and so by April, everybody's really struggling. And so that final sharecase was a chance for--like we had somebody come from the Ohio Department of Higher Ed, we had people come from the president's office at ÍÃ×ÓÏÈÉú from student financial aid, and, you know, a lot of their friends came. And they all said afterward, you know, with great shock and excitement, oh my gosh, like, what I did actually mattered. People cared about it. The, you know, adults, the working adults who came didn't know all the things that we had to share. And so I think that that that to me, is what a ÍÃ×ÓÏÈÉú education is supposed to do, help them be critical thinkers who can make a change in the world. And so it's really exciting to see that actually happening at the sharecase.

Rena Perez [00:12:28] Yeah, I can imagine that that was a really impactful experience for them to actually see the audiences that they're writing to and interact with them and the impact that they had created through the materials that they had developed in their groups where it was then actually be able to apply that to the world and start the process of educating others and spreading awareness.

Liz Wardle [00:12:50] Did any of the students, and I guess, professionals, once they graduate, continue their work?

Rena Perez [00:12:58] That's a good point. I think we often want them students in capstone courses to make connections with local communities. And then how do they continue those partnerships or even continue to work towards those problems after their time in the course?

Liz Wardle [00:13:11] And that's definitely happened in other capstones that I've taught. So the previous capstone that I taught was really thinking about misconceptions about writing and how to correct them. And so one person I remember very clearly was going to be a teacher. And so part of what she was doing was creating different kinds of teaching materials to help her students understand writing differently. And I've kept in touch with her, and so I know that she definitely used that material and that it's really helped shape her thinking. So, you know, whether I hear from them or not, I hope that it's helping them, you know, not just about that topic in particular, but also to recognize that you don't just have to accept things as they are. You can actually work to make change and that you have the capability of doing that. That's what I really want them to get out of that capstone, and I think it is the goal of the ÍÃ×ÓÏÈÉú Plan, and the capstone as part of the ÍÃ×ÓÏÈÉú Plan.

Elizabeth Hoover [00:14:05] Yeah.

Rena Perez [00:14:07] Yeah, to see their own role in learning about what's happening around them and to step up and that they have the power to make that change. And that's such an important takeaway for students who are doing a capstone project.

Elizabeth Hoover [00:14:18] They're informed citizens that can can make change.

Rena Perez [00:14:21] And I think one of the most applicable or transferable things from the example you gave was is the communicating with different target audiences. And no matter what profession they go into, they will be asked to think about how they can target messages depending on who their audience is. So I think that's a great exercise in that task.

Liz Wardle [00:14:41] Yeah. And I think part of that task is learning all the genres that are available to them as they do that. And so often when I do the capstone, we first start writing genres that are a little more like school. So they have to research the project and they have to do, you know, summaries of what they're reading and then do sort of like a white paper or a report just so that you it's clear that they know something before they start creating these outward facing projects. So we start with school genres, but then when the day comes when we say, well, what are you going to do to make change in the world about the student debt crisis or about the fact that for-profit institutions, for example, are really predatory? You know, it took a while for them to recognize that there are so many other genres available to them outside of school. So some of them started making, you know, websites, some of them made posters, some of them made stickers, some of them did social media campaigns. And so all of that, you know, they had to sort of wrap their heads around the fact that if you want to make change, there's many possible genres available to you to make change and that the only genres that count are not just school type genres. And I think that's exciting for them because a lot of them have all kinds of experiences that ÍÃ×ÓÏÈÉú doing graphic design or social media or, you know, all sorts of things that they don't necessarily recognize they could leverage in service of a problem that they want to solve. So to me, if that's where they get by the time they graduate, I think that's really exciting.

Rena Perez [00:16:13] Yeah. And I think it helps them to think about what is the best way to reach the audience that I'm looking to reach. What genre will help them to engage with the material in a way that will then lead to action or change? So, yeah.

Rena Perez [00:16:26] Yeah. It's clear that, you know, thinking about outside audiences and how capstone projects can help students learn how to communicate with them is an important part of the initiative for capstone. One thing that I found really interesting about the data from Liberal Education's assessment of senior capstones a few years ago were the findings that identifying an authentic audience for the project was not as present in that previous assessment. So at that time, nearly half of the projects assessed didn't have an audience for the project other than the teacher. But that's something that I know you both have been working on the last few years to help other instructors see ways that they could integrate outside audiences into the projects that they're having students work on. So starting with you Liz, from your perspective as a writing instructor, why is it so meaningful to emphasize having an audience outside of the instructor?

Liz Wardle [00:17:16] Well, this is been a large part of my research over the years, and I think it's really clear that writing for a real audience just engages you in different ways than writing for a made up audience or writing for a teacher. I mean, teachers are real, but I think they think of us as, you know, this is school. I'm doing school. And so I really love the chapter by Joseph Petraglia where he talks about the pseudotransactional nature of a lot of school writing that, you know, pretending to solve a problem, pretending to write for an audience just does not get you to do the same things as writing for a real audience. And I have seen that to be true almost every time that I have taught. I'm teaching the grant writing class right now. And, you know, the stuff they did for me was fine. But now that they have a real nonprofit partner who's really expecting them to give them a draft of a grant that they desperately need for the work they're doing, it just transforms their ability to do their work together. So even if they're absent or they can't come, they communicate with each other. They, you know, make their work up in other ways. And I'm not even involved in that. Right? One of them has a.. is there a Discord server, is that a thing?

Elizabeth Hoover [00:18:32] Yes.

Liz Wardle [00:18:32] One of the groups made themselves a Discord server. And so when somebody wasn't there, you know, I said, is he all right? And they were like, yeah, he's he's communicating. We're in touch with our partner. You know, they care about it in a completely different way than if it's, you know, they have a reading response they have to give to me, and there's really no good reason why they need to get it to me on Tuesday. You know, but there is a good reason why they need to get their grant to their partner done by the time the grant deadline rolls around. So I think it just makes a huge difference to have a real audience that, you know, would enable your work to actually mediate activity, do something in the world in a way that school writing just typically does not do.

Rena Perez [00:19:15] Right. And that's what we want them to see about their writing, is that it has the power to get things done, to communicate with others, to build community. And by giving them that authentic audience, it allows them to see that in action and get that experience. What would help convince students that capstones are a beneficial experience for them to end their education with?

Elizabeth Hoover [00:19:35] Well, I don't know. I don't think it's an ending. Right. I think what we're pointing to is that it is a beginning. It is a way to, you know, you rehearse things maybe earlier in your career as you're taking other courses for your liberal education and or your major and your minors. But then once you are getting ready to be in the real world, I mean, this is the moment--it is an important moment--for you to think about your impact and for you to think about a problem or problems that you are passionate about and that you perhaps already engage. And then how do you begin to approach solving them? Approach communicating to audiences about awareness and or solutions. So I think it is the place where they are at the center and they become to drive the learning, maybe more so than in other points of their career.

Rena Perez [00:20:33] Yeah, I think that's such an important point and I really love that reframing of it just being the beginning. It's the launching point to the next step as much as it is the culmination of this one. And I think that's a really great way to frame it to students that this can be a first step of you going out and taking what you've learned at ÍÃ×ÓÏÈÉú and using it in real world situations.

Liz Wardle [00:20:54] Yeah. And I think we might be missing a great marketing opportunity to, sort of, for our students, but also for everyone else that I do think this is a very special thing that ÍÃ×ÓÏÈÉú provides. Our entire ÍÃ×ÓÏÈÉú Plan is really trying to give them the sort of coherent experience across time, thinking about themselves as active learners and problem solvers. And then in the capstone course, they really get a chance to reflect on everything they've learned and everything they know how to do. So I often, you know, start with the skills inventory and try to get them to imagine everything they know and everything they know how to do, whether it was in school or not. And the list, when you put it together for everybody in the class, is really quite astonishing. I mean, our students are amazing and they know a lot of things, but I think they really need a space where they can say, I'm going to use what I know to solve a problem, but also I want to reflect on what are the challenges of doing that work in the world. So for my class right now, you know, sometimes their nonprofit partners don't get back to them. Sometimes they can't find the information they need. You know, there are just real world problems because, as we know, school and work are very different. One of my favorite books called, you know, Worlds Apart, it's about the difference between school and work, which are worlds apart. And I think that capstones help them get ready for that world. Internships do that, too. But I think this capstone is really the place since almost all the students are getting ready to go work--to recognize that in a work environment, it's not about you, the learner, it's about the project and, and the, you know, the work environment. And so I think that students have an opportunity to see this as sort of a soft launch or a safe space to try out everything they know in order to do real work in the world. And that's I think that's really cool. And I think it's a very special thing because of the environment at ÍÃ×ÓÏÈÉú that we provide to our students.

Rena Perez [00:22:54] Yeah, absolutely. It's structured as real experiential learning.

Elizabeth Hoover [00:22:58] I'm also thinking, too, this is it's a very unique opportunity where they're in a collaborative space and so it is a place for them to really hone the pillar collaboration and innovation with one another to receive feedback, to receive support, to encourage reflection and encourage perhaps new avenues, new ways of thinking and knowing. So it's also maybe a culminating part of their work with one another in maybe a surprising way. And that could be they're working in a team, but it could also be they're not in a team, but they need to interact with their peers so that they can move forward and make different approaches to change. 

Rena Perez [00:23:44] Yeah. So whether it is actually structured as a team project, there's still this element of collaboration where students learn from each other in this space. I really love, Liz, the idea of starting with a strengths inventory--just taking stock, having an opportunity to really think about everything you've taken from your experience at ÍÃ×ÓÏÈÉú, how other people have taken different things, how they complement one another and how they can be used together to collaborate on a particular project or problem.

Liz Wardle [00:24:10] Yeah. And I think that, you know, what Elizabeth Hoover and I do a lot together and separately is really think about how do you support faculty to create that environment? Because it's not typical of a usual classroom. And so I think that we all need some help too, and thinking about if that's what we want to do, then we've got to set things up in a way that help students actually do that. And so, you know, often they will say, I don't know how to do this. And I'll say, I don't know how to do it either. Let's find out who else in the class actually does. And there's always someone who does. And then for them to be going to each other and asking, you know, how do you use this piece of software?  How do you use this tool? Or, you know, right now there's a team where one of them doesn't mind making a phone call and the other one really minds. And so, you know, he takes responsibility for all the phone calls, but she takes responsibility for the written emails to their partner. And I just think that it's really important for them to learn that none of us know everything. And so we've all got to lean on each other. And this will be definitely true for them in the workplace. And so I think it's also important for us to help faculty learn how you set it up that way, because you've got to create the environment where you don't look to me, you look to each other and that I don't know and you all can figure it out. And I just think that school has often been, you know, about me getting my grade, and now it's about you all working toward a common good together, and you need each other. And I am really proud of our students. Though this semester when they first got in their teams, I had them write a procedural memo, which was my favorite thing to do in this in this class, where you say, "here's our team, here's our team philosophy, here's what we expect of each other and here's what's going to happen if members of our team drop the ball." And I could hear this one team--I don't know what was happening, but they were having a really good time. They were taking mad notes. And I said, "What are you doing? And they said, "We're each discussing our strengths and weaknesses so that we can clearly figure out who needs to do what role." And I thought, well, what a great idea and I didn't tell you to do that. And so that just makes me so happy that ÍÃ×ÓÏÈÉú has prepared them in that way to do that kind of work. So sometimes I just think as faculty, we need to get out of the way to help them be able to do that.

Rena Perez [00:26:35] Yeah, As you said, it's a student driven opportunity. And so to step back and we're not used to that, sometimes that's a little uncomfortable, I think, for instructors, but to be willing to trust in that our students have learned so much at their time here and now it's time to put it in action and let them kind of drive that work together as a team or as a class.

Liz Wardle [00:26:53] Yeah.

Rena Perez [00:26:55] So I think that brings us to another important point that I wanted to touch on in our podcast today, which is thinking about designing and teaching Capstone. We've talked a lot about kind of the importance of them for students and their different qualities, but as we are kind of organizing our podcast, an important part of "how we do it" is "how we teach it." I'd love to reflect with you both on what you found to be the elements of designing and teaching Capstone effectively. So Elizabeth Hoover, what are some of the best practices that come to your mind for designing capstone projects?

Elizabeth Hoover [00:27:26] I think that the primary part is, I mean, starting with a problem and not necessarily the solution or the end goal, but what is the question? What bothers you? What do you what what what do you need to investigate? What do you need to explore? And then, as a faculty member facilitating that, as we just discussed, their peers, their colleagues are going to play a significant role in shaping their progress. But the faculty member is a support to help guide them so that they can move in different directions, but in a very specific way. So to incorporate scaffolding, to make sure there are check points that are deliberate, to ensure that, you know, if something is really challenging, how are you going to navigate it and who in the room can help you navigate that? Other than that, I'm trying to think of other things. I, I don't know.

Rena Perez [00:28:30] I think starting with a question is really important because, again, I think as instructors, we tend to want to know the answer at the end goal, the end point. What will this look like? What will students complete? But being willing to just live in that uncertainty and just start with what do we want to know? What do we want to learn more about? And that starts with looking around us to the questions that we're asking in our everyday lives, and in our communities. And so I think for those instructors who are designing a capstone project for the first time, just thinking about what questions are coming to your mind that you think students would care about too.

Elizabeth Hoover [00:29:01] And who are the audiences that are going to interface with, that are impacted? Who are the stakeholders? I think that then that's the next thing to think through. And then what sources are out there and what resources are out there that can help you begin to make progress?

Liz Wardle [00:29:20] And I do think that is a shift for a lot of faculty because this is not a content coverage course. No, it's really a project course. And so I feel like your job as a faculty member is to identify, as Elizabeth said, sort of the problem space. And so, which is why I always, you know, I'm like, okay, let's look at student debt or let's look at misconceptions of writing or, you know, whatever it may be. And especially when these are in the various disciplines, you know, I know people have done them on all sorts of things, you know, public health problems, rivers, you know, I mean, there's all sorts of things. And your job, I think, is to shape the problem and then give students a chance to immerse themselves in that problem and then set up, you know, well, what's going to happen? How are you going to walk them through? And something I hope that we do is figure out now that I understand this problem, what would I do next if I wanted to intervene? And so then I think we become really like project managers instead of sort of classroom teachers, which is a shift for some people. But I think once you can wrap your head around it as a faculty member, it's very exciting because they just do things that I could never have imagined and I personally can't do. And so that's really fun to watch. It makes me so proud of them. But I think for faculty, it does require a little bit of a shift in sort of how we even plan and execute a class.

Rena Perez [00:30:47] Yeah, you're taking on a different role because you're focusing more on the overarching structure and scaffolding without necessarily knowing how exactly the details will come together. So it's a really interesting perspective to then have on the project.

Liz Wardle [00:31:02] And you really don't know where it's going to go. I could never have said what they were all going to make in those two capstone classes that I've taught recently. I just couldn't have imagined it ahead of time what they were going to create and the genres they were going to make and the tools that they would need to do it. And so I think you just have to let go of the fact that you need to know whatever it is they're going to end up doing or that you need to know how to do that. What you know is your content. You have expertise in your discipline. But they have to figure out how you solve a problem and you can constantly be sending them to resources. And I think that's the other skill we have that maybe we forget that we have. We know lots of people. We know the librarians who can help you. We know people in the community who can maybe hook you up with what you need. But that's sort of where we need to limit our involvement there while they get going on solving the problem.

Rena Perez [00:32:03] And it can be tough to not just jump in and want to kind of micromanage more, but it's important that students get the experience in kind of figuring things out for themselves and that we are just kind of then supports to that.

Liz Wardle [00:32:15] Yeah. And I think that this does not mean that you just send them off and hope it works out.

Rena Perez [00:32:21] Right.

Liz Wardle [00:32:21] Right. It doesn't mean there's no scaffolding or structure. It just means that what they create is really up to them and made by them. My nephew was in--I don't remember what you call like discovery, something, he's like 13 and they have this discovery, I can't remember the name of it. But anyway, these kids are given problems and then they have to solve them. And the parents who coach them can do nothing. They just make sure they get to where they need to go. And I think this is sort of similar in the fact that you get them there, but then they have to make it. And I think that the more we can do that and showcase, which I think is what the Office of Liberal Ed can also do and has been trying to do, is like showcase what these look like so that faculty can start to really embrace that and get excited about it.

Rena Perez [00:33:15] Yeah. And I think that is what's exciting to not know--it's something different every time, something fresh, every time that you teach because it's so student-driven and to what their skills and interests are.

Elizabeth Hoover [00:33:25] I think I like positioning it as even when you do suggest certain sources and resources, it's like, well now you get to choose your own adventure in terms of how those are going to help you with your inquiry.

Rena Perez [00:33:37] Right. We're making a suggestion, but you still have agency because you're the decision maker who has to decide. Yeah.

Elizabeth Hoover [00:33:42] And that there are consequences. Right, to those decisions. And different people might be impacted or you might change your direction entirely. Right?

Rena Perez [00:33:52]  Right. And I think that kind of speaks to what you're saying is one of maybe the more challenging aspects of designing and teaching these capstone projects for faculty, which is just that you have to be willing to be flexible and adapt and just again, not have a pre-planned notion for where exactly things need to end up or any expectation that way.

Elizabeth Hoover [00:34:11] So it's an interesting line, right? To support and let go. To facilitate and yet trust. It might be a threshold concept.

Liz Wardle [00:34:23] It might be.

Rena Perez [00:34:24] It just might be! It seems like we keep running into those things no matter what. Alright, well, I feel like you probably already have answered the last question I had about, like, leaving faculty with a piece of advice or guidance if they were to design a capstone project. Sounds like, you know, this balance of being supportive and letting go, but also, you know, drawing on your expertise but allowing students to bring in theirs. Is there any other final remarks that you would give to faculty who are designing for the first time?

Elizabeth Hoover [00:34:55] I think faculty to faculty connections, right? So to yes, attend certain seminars in which faculty are discussing what they've tried, how they have forged connections with communities, the directions that the students have taken in terms of form and genre. So I guess not thinking about yourself in a vacuum of the capstone, because that's contrary to the whole purpose of the capstone and what the students are doing, right? So we as a ÍÃ×ÓÏÈÉú community making connections and listening to one another and how we're encouraging this type of deep learning in capstones is important.

Rena Perez [00:35:31] Yeah, modeling to students that collaboration and that you're not expected to know at all or be able to do it all.

Elizabeth Hoover [00:35:37] It's meta, yeah!

Rena Perez [00:35:37] Very much so!

Liz Wardle [00:35:37] I second that because I think it's easy to get used to doing teaching the way you've always taught and that what works for your discipline and this for many people is just different than what they typically do. And so lots of people are doing it very well and in very different ways. And so connecting with them is what I've typically seen is where people get excited. You know, they start to see,  oh you can do that?  Oh your students actually do that? And I think related to that, don't underestimate your students.

Rena Perez [00:36:10] Yeah.

Elizabeth Hoover [00:36:11] Yes!

Liz Wardle [00:36:11] They're so smart and they're so able to do things. And I think often, you know, I've heard people say, well, they could write a proposal for a research project, but they couldn't actually do one or they could, you know, write a fake grant proposal, but not a real one. They can do all of those things and many, many more. But you just have to set up the structure to support them. And I think the way you start to realize what's possible is to connect with other people.

Rena Perez [00:36:37] Yeah, see those possibilities and also see what our ÍÃ×ÓÏÈÉú students have done. Well, thank you both for sharing all of your insights about capstone projects, your experiences. And also I just think your final note about just trusting in your students and their expertise and being willing to see what amazing things they can do is just such a great framing for thinking about capstone projects.

Elizabeth Hoover [00:36:59] It's because our students are amazing.

Rena Perez [00:37:01] They are!

Liz Wardle [00:37:02] They're the best.

Rena Perez [00:37:02] Yes, and it's also about trusting in the educational experience that we've given them, too, and knowing that that has brought them to this point. Anything else you'd like to plug or share that you have upcoming?

Liz Wardle [00:37:14] Just be on the lookout for workshops through the Howe Center. Often,we do workshops with the Office of Liberal Ed, and quite frequently, they're about capstone projects. So, please come!

Elizabeth Hoover [00:37:25] Yes.

Rena Perez [00:37:25] Keep an eye out! Alright well, thank you both! It was so interesting to hear from Liz and Elizabeth about how capstones can connect students learning and skills and engage them in collaborating and communicating with outside audiences. We thank them both again for their time, their willingness to be the "guinea pig" guests for our first episode, and for their unwavering dedication to teaching and learning at ÍÃ×ÓÏÈÉú and beyond. And thank you, listeners, for tuning into this first episode. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast wherever you're listening from, so you'll know right away when we release our next episode on [drum roll sound] op-eds. Check out our capstone resource linked in the episode description below, where you can find more guidance on and examples of capstone projects. And don't forget, if there's topics of kinds of writing that you'd like to hear about in future podcast episodes, write to us at hwac@miamioh.edu. We'd love to hear from you! Alrighty, folks, and that....is howe we do it. Talk to you again soon!

Elizabeth Hoover [00:38:27] I do like the ad lib.

Rena Perez [00:38:28] But you have to edit the ad lib.

Elizabeth Hoover [00:38:30] I'm on the same page.

Liz Wardle [00:38:31] I don't like the podcasts where people just talk about whatever for as long as they want.

Rena Perez [00:38:37] The weather, what's in and out....

Elizabeth Hoover [00:38:39] Some of them are like an hour and a half long.

Rena Perez [00:38:43] Yeah.

Liz Wardle [00:38:43] Yeah. I want you to get to the -- bring on the water as they said about the Titanic.

Rena Perez [00:38:48] I love that comparison. [laughter] Alright, well, then, let's bring on the water, folks! [laughter] 

Rena [00:00:05] Welcome to the initial teaser of the "This is Howe We Do It" podcast from the Howe Center for Writing Excellence at ÍÃ×ÓÏÈÉú University. Should we have some celebratory music, hear some sort of horn sound? I feel like we need a hype up sound.

 Will [00:00:20] Something like this?

 Rena [00:00:23] Yeah. That's perfect. So, hey, everyone, we are so excited to have you listening to our teaser episode of the This is Howe We Do It podcast, and we hope that it will leave you wanting to hear even more. So first, let's talk about who we are and what we do. If you aren't yet familiar with the Howe Center for Writing Excellence, you can find us on the first floor of King Library. The Howe was founded in 1996 by Roger and Joyce Howe, who are alumni here at ÍÃ×ÓÏÈÉú. We say our Howe Center for Writing Excellence has two sides, one for writing and one for teaching. Our Howe Writing Center, directed by Lizzie Hutton, is the writing side. Our writing center supports all writers, whether students, faculty or staff, on any stage of their writing projects and at any stage of their process. Our Howe Writing across the Curriculum program directed by Liz Wardle, supports teachers, whether faculty or grad students with their teaching, particularly around teaching about or with writing. Feel free to read more about our center at our website or reach out with any questions about how we can support you. But now it's time to introduce ourselves. So I'm your host, Rena Perez, one of the graduate assistant directors for the Howe Writing Across The Curriculum program. And please say hi to our behind the scenes executive producer, Will Chesher, who's the other graduate assistant director for the Howe Writing Across The Curriculum program. Hi Will.

 Will [00:01:42] Hi, Rena. Executive producer sounds so official, it sounds so good. I'm just going to put that on my CV. But yeah. So while listeners won't be directly hearing from me in future episodes of the podcast, we wanted to create this initial teaser episode to go over the mission and vision of the podcast and give you all a preview of what's to come. This is a new kind of programing from us in the House Center for Writing Excellence, and we can't wait to jump in. So Rena, can you talk about the mission and vision of the podcast?

 Rena [00:02:08] Absolutely. Will, because it feels like everyone has a podcast these days, right? But we wanted to start one, too, because we wanted to think critically about the teaching and learning of writing. We want this to include thinking about different types of writing contexts for writing and how writing impacts us as teachers and students academically, civically, personally and professionally. But we don't just want to think about this amongst ourselves. We want to hear from and highlight faculty and students at ÍÃ×ÓÏÈÉú who are doing this work and share it in a way that's accessible to everyone. Hence this podcast to show others that this is how we do it. Yeah.

 Will [00:02:41] I love it. But now this is super exciting. So what will this look like? What do you envision this podcast being?

 Rena [00:02:46] That's a good question. Well, so we want this podcast to include open and collaborative conversations with teachers and students about writing in all of its different forms in order to spotlight the innovative thinking, writing and teaching happening on our campus and in our community.

 Will [00:03:02] There's so much great teaching and learning happening at ÍÃ×ÓÏÈÉú, and I think it can be challenging at times to try and share these stories and get them out there. I know we have faculty spotlights, various resources and articles on the Howe Center for Writing Excellence website, but we often don't get to hear directly from the faculty and students that we spotlight.

 Rena [00:03:19] Yes, exactly. So as part of our mission, we wanted to speak directly to faculty and students about their stories, hear their experiences and ideas about how these different forms of writing that they have engaged with as writers and teachers have worked for them. So, listeners, here's what we've got in store for you for our first few episodes in the upcoming months. You'll hear about capstone projects, Op Eds and ePortfolios as different forms of writing that students and instructors are using in ways that make student writing authentic instead of performative. You'll hear perspectives from faculty and students across disciplines as they reflect on their process for composing or teaching in these different genres of writing.

 Will [00:04:00] And also as a way to extend the conversation beyond the podcast. We have a variety of resources available on the Howe Center for Writing Excellence website, which will be linked in the comments and description below alongside our existing resources for each of the podcast episodes. We'll have a dedicated page about that topic with links, annotated resources, assignment prompts and examples that you can adapt and use for your own context.

Rena [00:04:22] Whoa. There's so many resources to check out. Well, that's all we have for today, but we cannot wait to dive in to our first episode in the next few weeks. In the meantime, like and subscribe to our podcast on Spotify, Apple Music or wherever you listen to your podcasts. to be the first to know when you have a new episode from us. If there's topics or kinds of writing that you'd like to hear about in future podcast episodes. Write to us at each HWAC@miamioh.edu,  we'd love to hear from you. Alrighty, folks. And that is...Howe We Do It. Talk to you again soon.

Will [00:05:01] Let's do it. Yeah. Hype this up!

Rena [00:05:03] This is how we do it.

Will [00:05:04] This is how we do it. This is how we do it. That's going to be the outro.